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What are these Fields?

edited September 2012 in Feature Requests
Hey guys,

I thought I had it all worked out, but man these input fields keep catching me out. I think I understand when/where each is used, so I spend up to a couple of hours sometimes writing & spinning content for them only to find out that I got it all wrong! I've been trying to figure it out by toggling engine types on and off, but clearly that's not enough.

It also seems that some fields get used in multiple different places.

For example: "About Yourself" - some say it's used as the article's bio, but by checking the article's submitted it doesn't always seem to be that way. Description_250 and Description_450, well that beats me! I thought they were article summaries, but then I notice that there's already an "Article Summary" field (which by the way doesn't tell you how long it should be), yet they're enabled for article directories, Web 2.0, Social and others, so where/how are these used in each?

I need to know where/how each field is being used in order to write relevant content for it! It would be VERY helpful if either the hover-tip
for each field clearly explained where/when/how each input field is
used, or the field's titles better implied where they are used, or
something!

ยซ1

Comments

  • OzzOzz
    edited September 2012
    Article Summaries = Article Summaries.
    Descriptions = Description of the content of your website or service. Mostly used for directories.
  • And "About Yourself"?

    If descriptions are for directories, why are they also required for article submissions, and what are they used for in the case of article submissions?

    I have a project that does not have Directory as an engine type checked at all yet these 2 fields are required, so in what context are they used for:

    Article (description 250)
    Social Network (description 450)
    Social Bookmark (description 250 & description 450)

    Also, what is "About Yourself" used for in Document Sharing? And in Forum? The profile I assume? If so, since it's also used as the bio for articles and as the profile for Forums, I'd have to split articles and profile link creation into separate projects since I'd write completely different things for each...

    That's why I'm suggesting that the hover-tips explain where/how each field is used.
  • OzzOzz
    edited September 2012
    "About yourself" is your bio in profiles. Plain and simple.
    You can have a profile in any kind of platform and is just an extra link along with your article links and are used in your profile only. Just take a look into your phpFox backlinks. You get one backlink for posting your URL into a profile and one for posting in an article/blog.

    Description are mostly used in directories. If you are not sure than parse some of the article, SN and SB sites, register a fake account and edit the form in SER in a way that works best for your purpose.
  • SvenSven www.GSA-Online.de
    next version will have a hint to help you where certain fields are used
  • Thanks Sven!

    Ozz, sorry but that's simply not enough information. "About yourself" is used elsewhere and not just for profiles, and "mostly" used here or there is not good enough when I'm spending hours trying to write the correct type of content for the correct type of submissions! So I appreciate Sven adding the tooltips.
  • OzzOzz
    edited September 2012
    than just make an account on these sites *goddammit* if you want to know what your "about yourself" field should look alike or give me some specific examples. your question was way to general (.." also used as the bio for articles .." <-- which article engines/sites??) and my answer was that "about yourself" is mostly used in profiles bio, which is fact regarding to all platforms. what else do you want to know?
  • edited September 2012
    There's no need to get agro or for cursing. I have a very high regard and respect for you and your work with GSA as I do others like Sven and Santos etc. As a client of GSA who I've backed in many forums I only ask for a bit of patience and the same respect I give to you.

    As with any paid-for software, in my honest opinion one should not have to spend hours trying to figure out what fields do what due to possible lack of documentation or intuitiveness, for example. With SER I've tried to figure it out on my own but I'm still confused so I've approached what I understand to be the correct channel to ask a question which I thought was quite simple.

    This issue is actually not a big deal at all, but it still requires clarification in my opinion, and that's all I'm asking for.

    Let me see if I can break down a couple of my questions more clearly:

    Article
    1. Description 250 is required. What is it used for? Is THIS the bio (the place where you place content with links back to your page, typically at the bottom of the article), or is "About yourself" the bio?
    2. According to Santos, "About Yourself" is used as the bio for articles,
      which is why I thought that field was in articles. He's said it more
      than once in a number of forums including WF. If it's not used as the bio, then what is "About Yourself" used for in ARTICLES?
    3. If "About Yourself" is not the bio, then what IS used as the article bio (see question 1)?
    4. Social Network  - "About Yourself" is used for profiles and article fields for blog posts. So what then is description 450 used for?
    5. Social Bookmark - what is description 250 and description 450 used for? Are they both website descriptions just different lengths or is one the description and the other something else or...?

    If Sven's already addressing these in the next update by updating the field tooltips then that's great and I'll wait patiently.
  • Ruggero,

    I have had exactly the same problem as you have detailed. I have a great big table in excel breaking down all the platforms, fields used etc to try and work out which is reused in other types so I can write one spun piece and add it into each.

    I totally agree with everything you say. A bookmark project has description 250 and 450. Most articles are only just over 450 words (I stick to just over 500) and I have never seen a bookmark that is the size of an article. I just put the content from 250 into 450 and ignore the warning it is not long enough. Doing a good job of spinning 450 words takes a long time and I cannot see any explanation or requirement for it. If there is a good reason, it should be made clear.

    If Sven is going to add some clarity to tool tips, that would be good for me too and I am sure to the hundreds of new users in the future.


  • edited September 2012
    Thanks Rich - I'm glad for the affirmation because I was starting to think that maybe I'm just being a complete idiot!

    Your post just serves to support my point: it seems that you're under the impressions that description_250 and description_450 requires 250 words and 450 words respectively. In fact because I noticed the calculation which happens below when you paste content into those fields, I figured out that it's characters, not words, that it's referring to (not confirmed, but I'm inputting those fields on this basis).

    It just proves that many users don't know exactly what field requires what info and where that info is used...
  • Hi Ruggero,

    Well that makes far more sense for it to be 250 or 450 characters, far more in keeping with a bookmark, I think that makes the point that it is not clear what should be going where. In hindsight, it makes sense but it would not have occurred to me it was characters as virtually every box you ever complete that has a limit will tell you how many words.

    I have to say, I love GSA, it is generally better than anything else I have used and the support is great. I also use ultimate demon and have to say that while GSA is easier to use and far better value than UD, UD is very, very user friendly when it comes to setting up projects and as well as the  300 page manual that explains every field and process in the software, you generally don't need to reference it because everything is very clearly labeled and explained.

    After several months of using GSA, I have now worked a lot of it out and going through this forum is answering a lot of the remaining questions in my head but I do think a lot of the interface could be made a bit bigger, clearer and easier to understand.






  • OzzOzz
    edited September 2012
    @Ruggero: I'm sorry that I was rude to you. I'm like you just a normal user. Sure, I have a mod-status but that is nothing more than a title. I think I have to clarify this for the case you or somebody else mix it up and think I'm some kind of "staff" member.  As I said I'm just a normal user who tries to serve as a model in terms of helping each other out and to improve this software for everyone.

    Regarding to your "About Yourself" question I beg you to change your perpective to the point of view of the developer (= Svens point of view). If you want to develop a SEO software that supports a huge variety of platforms you have to make some compromises. If you don't do this than it would be way more fragmented than it is right now. Because of that a variable like "About Yourself" is used in different ways for different platforms. Don't think that every "About Yourself" is the same. You see some differences when opening a script-file.

    For Example
    - this is a standard "About Yourself":
    [About_Yourself]
    type=memo
    allow html=0
    allow return=1
    must be filled=1
    max length=250
    hint=Please fill this with some information about yourself. Use the spin syntax heavily here.
    auto modify=0
    default=%file-about_yourself.dat%

    It just make use of the "file-about-yourself" in your engines-folder. No HTML. No Anchors and is used just as a text in your profile in forums or some other platforms.


    - this is another one from "insanejournal.com.ini"
    [About_Yourself]
    type=memo
    allow html=1
    allow return=1
    must be filled=0
    html line break=1
    hint=Please fill this with some information about yourself. Use the spin syntax heavily here.
    custom mode=1
    auto modify=2
    default=%file-about_yourself.dat%
    auto add anchor url=2
    auto add anchor url content={{Check out|Stop by|Visit|Review|Take a look at|Have a look at|Look at|Look into} my|My|my|Here is my|Also visit my|Feel free to {visit|surf to} my} {web page|web site|website|webpage|site|page|blog|homepage|web-site|weblog|web blog|blog post}{:| ::|;| -| ...|} <a href="%url%">%anchor_text%</a>

    This "About Yourself" make use of HTML with anchors and is posted to the form field "bio=" in your profile of insanejournal.com. 

    - this is from "Article Script.ini"
    [About_Yourself]
    type=memo
    allow html=1
    allow return=1
    must be filled=1
    hint=Please fill this with some information about yourself. Use the spin syntax heavily here.
    auto modify=2
    html line break=1
    default=%file-about_yourself.dat%
    auto add anchor url=1
    auto add anchor url content={If you are you looking for|Here's|{If you want to|To|If you're ready to} {see|check out|find|find out|learn|read}|Here is|For} {more|more info|more information} {about|on|in regards to|regarding} <a href="%url%">%anchor_text%</a> {check out|stop by|visit|review|take a look at|have a look at|look at|look into} %url_domain%%url_path%

    This "About Yourself" is used in articles as "About the Author"


    Now compare that to the articles that are posted to both engines (insanejournal and article script):

    -insanejournal:
    [Article]
    type=memo
    allow html=1
    must be filled=1
    hint=The full article comes here.
    html line break=1
    auto modify=0
    auto add anchor url=2
    auto add anchor url content={If you are you looking for|Here's|{If you want to|To|If you're ready to} {see|check out|find|find out|learn|read}|Here is|For} {more|more info|more information} {about|on|in regards to|regarding} <a href="%url%">%anchor_text%</a> {check out|stop by|visit|review|take a look at|have a look at|look at|look into} %url_domain%%url_path%

    -article script:
    [Article]
    type=memo
    allow html=1
    must be filled=1
    hint=The full article comes here.
    html line break=1
    auto modify=0

    As you can see the [Article] of insanejournal is different to article script. 

    Article Script post your articles and make use of the rescource field of Article Script with a special [About_Yourself] with a text like "If you want to find out more about URLwithAnchor take a look at URL".

    Insanejournal post an [Article] with special lines like "If you want to find out more about URLwithAnchor have a look at URL" right below that article. No rescource box available on this site. [About_Yourself] was not used this time in the article. It was just use in your profile you have created on this site.


    This brings me back to the subject I was talking about in my first answers. If you want to know more about what kind of engines is using what variables it is best to make a fake account on each of them. To optimise all variables for your proposes you have to know the engine. Compare every step, variable and field of that site to the engine script. Sven has made a great job in configuring the engines for general uses. If you want to specify this than it is your job and we should be glad that we are allowed to do that. We should also be glad that the standard settings are good for the purpose of most users so there is nothing to optimise.

    And I begged you to be more specific about what engines you are talking about. Because your question were way to general to answer to I was a little pissed about that.
    For example: 
    "Article - Description 250 is required. What is it used for? Is THIS the bio (the place where you place content with links back to your page, typically at the bottom of the article), or is "About yourself" the bio?"

    For what article-engine is [Description_250] requiered? As you might have learned every engine is different from each other and has different fields to post to. On some Web 2.0's you can post a website title and a description what's that blog is about. The same description is used in directories to introduce your website or service in a few sentences. Both are almost the same, but could be specified if you want to if you are seperating your projects.
  • Cheers for the patience of Ozz :D Wow, what detailed instructions!!! Respect such efforts and try to search a least through the forum before asking. Otherwise such valuable stuff will get lost in 10 times repeating basic questions.
  • SvenSven www.GSA-Online.de
    yep Ozz is really amazing...if he would life near by we could as well hire him :)
  • edited September 2012
    @Ozz, thank you for your apology (forgiven and forgotten) and the clarification. By the way, I know you are "just a mod", but nonetheless you do a lot of valuable work which benefits us all so respect and thank you for that.

    Firstly, let me make clear that I'm not bashing SER in any way - it's a fantastic tool, however I am trying to make the overall user experience better for all of us. I'm a software developer myself so I totally get it, but it's important that we "switch hats" to being the "user" in this case. When you do, you'll realise that there is a lack of intuitiveness / documentation with regards to how each engine uses certain (not all) SER fields, especially the generic-looking description fields and to some degree the "About Yourself" field can be a touch confusing from time to time.

    Ozz you've sort of made my point for me - each engine is different and there are literally hundreds of them. What you're suggesting is that each and every client should create an account at each and every engine in each category which has a field they're unsure about and then open each engine's script and try to figure out which field belongs where? Certainly not everyone can understand even those (heck they may not even know where they are or how to open them), and I know I certainly don't have a day or more to figure all that out (which is why I bought the software in the first place).

    Based on your post it's clear to me that each engine script knows exactly what its using and where. The only missing link is telling the user this information! Let's not forget that this software is built to serve the user - how does it serve me (in the context of this conversation) if I don't even know what info is being used where and when and I'm left to my own devices to spend potentially hours figuring it out for myself? And what about those who simply don't have the mindset to do it? You don't have to know about files or code to be great at SEO, and this is an SEO tool designed for people doing SEO, not a developer's tool designed for coders or software testers.

    All that needs doing IMHO is to update the tooltip of each engine to indicate which fields are being used and for what purpose, which is exactly what I asked for and what Sven's offered to do in the next release. If this gets done at production level then we all benefit from not having to spend potemtially hours doing it over and over again with each new engine rollout, nevermind the fact that I honestly believe that this exercise may be beyond a lot of people's capabilities.
  • OzzOzz
    edited September 2012
    First of all, I think we all know that SER lacks in kind of documentation in some way.
    But  - the engines are built to serve a high majority of users in a way that they can "set and forget"
    - there are changes to the software almost every day so documentation is even harder

    Don't forget that Sven is a "One Man Army" and he fullfill nearly every customer wish. So we have to ask ourself what we want:
    a) less updates and therefore better documentation or
    b) more updates that are lacking of documentation

    I personally vote for b).

    Furthermore I think that not everything has to be documented in a way that regards only a minority of users. Most of us using this software without tweaking it too much - Set and Forget. If you want to tweak everything you have to need to investigate by yourself. 
    Compare this to a car. Most people buy a car and don't care if they could drive with it even faster if they tweak  the engine. But a minority of people just want to do that and they are not complaining about a lack of documentation because they don't read how to do this in the manual of that car. They investigate their car and talk to people who know their stuff.

    I suggested to you that you should should create an account and compare the script to it to understand the engine. I don't meant that every client has to do this. Only those who want to "pimp their rides". As you clearly want to pimp your ride, you have to do that in my opinion. And you have to invest some time to do this.
    You can't complain if such a thing is not documented in a manner that everyone should understand how to tweak anything of this software when there is no need to it, because that does regard only a very small minority of clients.

    I can agree with you that some forms like [Description XXX] are not documented very well in the manual or tooltip. The description field confuses many and some examples how to use them would be nice.
    But most of those fields and settings are documented good enough in the tooltips or videos of S4ntos.

    Last point and my personal opinion only. You asked about the clients that don't have the mindset or time to understand  everything. The software is designed in a way that you don't have to do much if you only want to use basic settings. If you don't want to invest time to watch video instructions or this forum than you have to live with the basic settings and should be fine. We should be glad that Sven allows us to tweak almost everything in this software.

    And honestly, I for myself is happy about the fact, that not everything is fool proof in this software. There are people in forums who are complaining about the price of the software already and want monthly fees, because they fear that every "noob" is able to spam everything. 
  • Ozz- good points you make here. I will add that all of us should be mindful that this is one of the most truly collaborative software packages out there. Sven is constantly adding new features and he listens to all of us and implements 99% of features without a question. Most software developers just fix bugs all day long, and update new features over a long period of time. This software gets updated daily - my god, I have only had this for 2 weeks, and I've had to updatethis over 10 times with many new features!! The updates are not bug fixes, but in my opinion 90% improvements and addition of new engines.

    If we want a full blown documentation, which would be impossible to constantly update given the almost daily updates of this package, this would divert Sven away from his efforts to constantly refine the features and expand the boundaries of backlinking in more diverse and optimal ways. 
  • I can definitely understand both sides of the "argument" in this discussion. I have been a programmer for over 30 years, so I know the complexities of developing something that is both user-friendly and robust enough to do what it needs to do.

    It should not be an either/or situation. A program should do what it is intended to do and the user should know how to use it. Unfortunately, the more complex the program, the greater the need for understanding it (to some level). And SER is a VERY COMPLEX program, so understanding how it works is important.

    Let me use Ozz's car example to defend Ruggero's side. Would you give your car to your 16 year old child with no training and little instructions and tell them "have at it"? If they need help, they can "try it themselves and see what it does"? I don't think so.

    It is easy to see that those involved in this discussion are the "power" users - that understand both sides of the discussion. But most people will look at those scripts and say "what the heck is that"? Sven has done a marvelous job of making a very powerful program usable by those people as well as tweekable for those that want to. It's just that it would be nice to know where & how to tweek - an owner's manual (to use the car example).
  • There is another side of this discussion that has not been taken into account. As I have noticed some people mentioning, the use of SER and this forum is increasing rapidly. And it is only going to increase. The "burden" to support all these users questions is going to increase as well.

    Organized documentation (and training) can GREATLY REDUCE the demand of keeping up with all the questions by answering them BEFORE they happen. If this is not done, I fear that eventually, most of Sven's (and other gracious users like Ozz) time will be eaten up by answering (often repeated) questions. When that happens, then the frequent updates that we have seen so far will probably take a back seat.
  • OzzOzz
    edited September 2012
    Quote DavidA2:
    Let me use Ozz's car example to defend Ruggero's side. Would you give your car to your 16 year old child with no training and little instructions and tell them "have at it"? If they need help, they can "try it themselves and see what it does"? I don't think so.

    This "car" we are talking about is a bargain which every kid can buy with his pocket money and even test drive it for 5 days. Like every student driver he has to learn driving first, than how to change the wheels and how to tune the car later on, if he thinks that he want to do that.

    - How to drive is documented well enough imo with the videos and to some point the manual
    - How to change wheels is the next step and you can assign a mechanic to do that or to read some further instructions if you want to save your money for this. Those instructions are in the forums and you get direct advice by some mechanics as well as the manufacturer (Sven) too
    - How to tune your engine needs a deeply understanding of that car. Most of the casual drivers don't care anyway and the small minority has to learn everything step by step and have to try everything and dig deep into all information they can get.

    Remember, you can test this software for 5 days and decide if you want to buy it or not. If it is too complex than a software like NoHandsSEO is better suited for you or someone else. Or you (or someone else) has to pay a monthly fee for Xrumer or SENuke to get even better customer support or documentation.

    The price of this software is another reason clients shouldn't expect a fool proof tool without any customisation by hand. But it is fool proof enough to start a basic campaign without to tweak everything. If you are done with the videos and manual you should know how to do that. Only the fact that Sven allows us to tweak his software and people realise that they can do it make it very complex. 


    About your second post I can agree to most points.
    Better documentation would be nice, but I for myself vote for a better product altogether with some lack of documentation. BTW, no one get stymied to start a tutorial or wiki about this software. Don't ask what the software can do for you, ask what you can do for an even better software.
  • s4nt0ss4nt0s Houston, Texas
    The thing is, writing out documentation for this software would probably a 500 page .pdf. I can easily make videos but the writing would be pretty insane. Even when I create videos, the software gets updated so frequently that I'd probably be making new ones daily lol.

    One thing that might be cool would be some kind of codex or GSA SER wiki. That way the community could build it up and add to over time.

    Just an idea ...
  • Santos...I was not trying to argue or defend either side of this discussion. I was merely stating that there is "merit" in both sides of it. (BTW - I guess the "car" analogy has gotten a little out of control.)

    I like your suggestion of a wiki (I think a codex would be not user friendly enough for the less technical). I definitely think it is something that should be seriously considered. Sure, it is going to take some effort. But, I think the long-term value would be great for the users and would ultimately take a big burden off those that are trying to support it (whether they be "staff" or just gracious members of the user community).

    I think it is fairly certain to say the popularity of SER is only going to increase. If question/support is an "issue" now, it is only going to become more of one. To ignore this would not be wise for the long term.
  • the SER wiki is the best idea i think, cause it can be updated on major changes easily, cause quite of the things on the FAQ thread are already overthrown, but basially i would vote for b) like Ozz better more platforms and feature, rather then a full documentation, however some basic wiki guide is crucial just to get started with it
  • s4nt0ss4nt0s Houston, Texas
    I also think the forum should have locked sections for paid customers. I don't think Sven should be having to give 1 on 1 forum support to people that are testing out the free trial. I see this happen quite often and it takes away from his time coding, etc.

    Then again, setting it up so that only paid customers could have access would take time and effort on Sven's part.

    I think if we can all pool together and hire some scientists, we can clone Sven a few times and really take things to the next level.
  • edited September 2012
    A lot was discussed here. Big thumbs up for Ozz statements (at BHW I would spend rep for this) - I see it exactly like him and for me personally is b) more important than a). If people are willing to search first here at the forum, they could ask every question and are helped by a growing community of people and Sven directly. That's more than good for a tool for this price.

    I really don't want to have a dummy proof ultra-easy super nuke in the hands of everyone who is able to pay this low price and don't want even spend a little time to customize the stuff to the own needs.

    Don't ask always what SER can do for you, ask what you can do for SER (take a look at the CONTRIBUTIONS of Ozz, S4nt0s and others). What else SEO tool has such regular updates and feature additions.. We should keep Sven at a good mood because he spend a lot of time (and not mainly to make big money) to provide us an impressive tool.

    EDIT: +1 for your last statements S4nt0s.. And it forced me to laught ;) A "coding-army" of Sven's, then Google would have some huge problems...
  • .. btw, can we remove those huge tooltips for what the fields are in the next release, i rather like to see the fields to fill then the tooltips for what those are

    for the paid area i dont think its a big deal, should be even doable with most forums software, every paid user has a GSA license anyways, i dont think its a big deal to link it to a account,

    i understand how important it is for a program to have a good support, but then on the other hand taking care of support issues is a huge time stealer for coding, so i kinda like the payed users pro guides

  • OzzOzz
    edited September 2012
    >
    .. btw, can we remove those huge tooltips for what the fields are in the next release, i rather like to see the fields to fill then the tooltips for what those are

    just move the mouse away from the field title and they are gone. or have you meant something different?
  • s4nt0ss4nt0s Houston, Texas
    edited September 2012
    Hey I like the new tool tips.

     It shouldn't be that hard to move the mouse away.
  • I like them too, I don't see any disadvantage on them and they were requested.
  • hmm oki, its all a bit tiny and slow when i connect to VPS server i guess therefore i was seeing all of the time tooltips, but since ill premade the data before i connect to server i wont complain, espacially when most people like it ...
  • edited September 2012
    Hey guys, just enjoyed a long weekend and since I'm the OP I thought I'd chime in since I think my original point seems to have gone somewhat astray.

    So to be clear: I'm not asking for documentation! Ozz I agree with you the forum and videos are enough to get off the ground.

    What I am asking for is more clear explanations of the input fields (specficially the ambiguous ones, like [Description XXX]) and where/how they're used! It's funny that after all this debating everyone agrees in the end that the tooltips are great/useful since that all I was asking for! Okay, well 90%. The only thing missing is how (i.e. for what) the fields is used for in specific engines.

    Based on this debate I gather that we all agree that there's got to be a balance between docs and usability/function. So we're all on the same page, I prefer (b) over (a) any day of the week and twice on Sundays. However, even you Ozz conceded that, "I can agree with you that some forms like [Description XXX] are not
    documented very well in the manual or tooltip. The description field
    confuses many and some examples how to use them would be nice."
    You go on to say,"But most of those fields and settings are documented good enough in the tooltips or videos of S4ntos."

    Well, with those 2 statements you and I are actually basically saying the same thing! I'm not asking for a 300 page manual. I agree that what's supplied is enough to "get started", and fields which are self-explanatory and unambiguous need no further input and I would go so far as to saying that telling someone in the tooltip that "Video Title" is, well, the Video Title would be totally ridiculous!

    All I'm trying to say is that when certain ambiguous fields are being used it would be nice to know where/how they're being used, and since the engine scripts already know this information surely it's not a complicated thing to add this information to the tooltips for each engine as and when they get developed.

    I know that GSA is priced like a gift and may as well be a giveaway! And I'm grateful! Nonetheless it's a paid-for product - customers should not be penalised because of the price point they did not set, and having an intuitive UI means less questions being asked, less documentation required, and a better user experience for everyone, period.

    To put it another way, I would pay more for a more intuitive UI if I were given the option; one should not "punish" clients for the price point that was not set by them if that's the argument.
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